Talk page 1 TTH[edit source]

Descent, and Ted Trainer[edit source]

I'm not ready to add these thoughts to the text yet (until I've read more and see where it fits), but wanted to mention them:

"...the term 'descent' as the least loaded word that honestly conveys the inevitable, radical reduction of material consumption and/or human numbers that will characterise the declining decades and centuries of fossil fuel abundance and availability."

I think it's very important to emphasize that reduced consumption of raw materials does not directly correlate to reduced abundance of living; it doesn't even correlate to a drop in the kinds of material comfort we've grown accustomed to through a 20th century consumer lifestyle, for several reasons:

  • Good design gives us the same output for a fraction of the material and energy input - E.g. through harnessing renewable energy in a direct way (e.g. passive solar or solar hot water) or by just using .
  • Good quality gives us more time from the same materials
  • Recycling (as a last resort)
  • Services are an essential part of an super-abundant quality of life, and don't have an inherently high carbon impact. Changes that give us more time to give as well as receive services - whether massage, health, education services, or services related to hobbies - ultimately meaning an increase in real wealth and quality of life.

Most recently, Ted Trainer of the University of New South Wales has argued, in the essential 'Renewable Energy Cannot Sustain a Consumer Society', that while renewable energy sources will have a key role to play beyond the peak, the idea that a Western consumer society can continue, let alone grow while being powered entirely by renewables, is absurd, and that redesigning for a far lower energy world is inevitable. He writes: "There is a widespread assumption that a consumer-capitalist society, based on the determination to increase production, sales, trade investment, 'living standards' and the GDP as fast as possible and indefinitely, can be run on renewable energy. . . . But if this assumption is wrong, we are in for catastrophic problems in the very near future and we should be exploring radical social alternatives urgently."

The assumption about growth through renewables actually seems valid to me (I guess I have a bright green outlook); but at the same time, the kind of precautions hinted at may be wise, and part of building resilient communities.

From hearing Ted Trainer (on the radio in Australia - possibly on the Counterpoint program) and reading a little online, he seems to generally take a harder line, not cautioning about a possibility, but really believing in the darker outlook:

Dr Ted Trainer believes that the levels of production and consumption in developed country's is unsustainable. He thinks that the only way to help the environment is to do away with capitalism as we know it and 'to almost completely scrap this economy'.Earthbeat - Natural Capitalism Challenged. ABC Radio National, interview, 22/07/00.

Perhaps it's the difference in background. I'm an engineer and have a lot of hope in technology. Ted Trainer is a lecturer in Social Work. Still, he makes some valid critiques of consumerism and biofuels in the interview linked above. Just not nearly enough to support his greater, sweeping argument, IMO. (I also suspect that his claim "A third of the world’s people are getting poorer, year by year now" is misleading at best. The broad trend is definitely towards prosperity, and I believe that's continuing. Not to say there aren't issues and challenges, just that this key statistic looks dubious to me.) --Chriswaterguy 07:27, 28 November 2008 (UTC)Reply[reply]

TTH talk page 2[edit source]

Other people[edit source]

Besides the Hunzakuts (or Burusho')s, there are other similar communities that can be mentioned as the Okinawans, the inhabitants from the high mountain valley of Villcabamba in South America and inhabitants in South Georgia, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Longevity#Indiginous_people_.28from_developing_world.29_with_high_life_expectancy

However, I guess only the Okinawans and Burusho's (latter only partly) actually also strive to a environmentally and healthy way of life.

81.246.130.16 13:34, 22 February 2009 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Getting involved[edit source]

The "getting involved" section should describe this coarse of action: -The following of AT coarses at centra (see below) -Use of the sites locating environmental work opportunities as treehugger, AIDA, worldchanging can then be a next step after having followed some basic training.

The coarses would provide benefits to both sides, perhaps the coarses can be given free of charge. Alternatively, perhaps some deals with AT organizations and/or AT/ecocities (eg Auroville, ...) can be made, such as free coarses for free work done in the cities, ...

Resources to obtain content to make AT-coarses can be got from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centre_for_Alternative_Technology , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Centro_Integrado_de_Technologia_Appropriada_(CITA) , and perhaps Peace Corps, and military engineers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_engineering ) as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army_Corps_of_Engineers ,and or other AT-organizations, practical coarses on AT can be given. I have seen that even small organizations as the New House Farm (http://web.archive.org/web/20170809172632/http://www.newhousefarm.tv:80/index=Courses ) provides coarses, so it can be done. This would be an extension to the documents and could be combined with my proposed 'low-cost education system' see http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Juridical_national_measures_on_transport,_politics_and_education#Open_source.2C_base-education_e-learning_platform

As the coarses provide thus benefits to both sides, perhaps the coarses can be given free of charge. Alternatively, perhaps some deals with AT organizations and/or AT/ecocities (eg Auroville, ...), monastries, ... can be made, such as free coarses for free work done in the cities, ...

The sites locating environmental work oppoertunities as treehugger, AIDA, worldchanging can then be a next step after having followed some basic training. The training would make sure that the applicants can make the essential energy, water supply, food systems themself, DIY and possibly from local material (alternatively they can obtain only some difficult parts from kits eg trough mail order; info can be given at appropedia/PESwiki). This to ensure that even without a large supporting group they can set up sustainable cities. At the moment, this is done by a group of engineers focusing on a single large project. However due to the current deadline, this is no longer possible (within 10 years, allot of emission reductions need to have been done already). Also it restricts the amount of projects that can be executed and limits own/free choice.

-- —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.246.130.16, 25 February 2009

Renewable energy - without the hot air[edit source]

Perhaps info from http://www.withouthotair.com/ can also be implemented

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